I agree. I think much more with this one Blizzard is trying to really show a thorough and thought out process on the part of the terran military to advance itself into a more mobile, versatile attack force. In the original game their units were much more heavily specialized, with maybe only the Battlecruiser being dominant against both. Goliaths were supposed to be the hydralisk or dragoon of the terrans, but it was notoriously underpowered, and I'm just guessing at this, because of the presence of the firebat.

_bomb

Much of this sounds like speculation. I wouldn't be surprised if SC2 has three times as much speculation as SSBB is getting right now, and thats a ton of speculation for Brawl. I'll believe what I see on Blizz's website (which I haven't visited in a week or so).

Nothing personal, but I've been reading about SC 2 rumored units for about 8 years now and I usually take what I hear with a grain of salt. Short of being posted on the SC 2 official site I'm going to wait for judgment on the supposedly new units. It could all be true, but with the frenzy of information and the insanity over the whole release it's tough to sort through what is real and what isn't.

That said, the information in your blurb about the reapers goes directly against what is posted on Blizzard's own site. It says they are trained at the barracks specifically by the terrans for the purpose of being reapers, not through a mercenary group.

_bomb

All of what has been posted has been confirmed by blizzard via the SC2 public multiplayer matches they had at blizzcon- especially the terran stuff, which was more or less shown there for the first time. That said, everything is still in flux in a game this early in development- they've dropped at least one unit since the original announcement (the Protoss soul hunter) and have done other changes, like putting the Carrier back in the game. But it's all true for the moment.

I don't remember about the reapers though.


Only two three things I remember that haven't been mentioned:
1. Blizzard is looking at the addition of yellow minerals to the standard blue, which would be more profitable (that is, a single SCV load would give one more minerals). With the idea that maps will often have safe 'standard' expansions and a more profitable but more dangerous yellow mineral expansions in the center.

2. There are neutral, invincible (I think) sensor towers scattered around some maps. A player with units around a tower controls it and is given a big chunk of the map revealed.

oh, and 3. Blizzard is keeping the former starcraft units that have been cut (dragoon, firebat, vulture, etc.) alive in the SC2 map editor, so one can use them in custom scenarios (and the inevitable port of the original starcraft).

This, I certainly hope is true

BLEH!!



They cut the vulture
What a sad day .

I really like some of the new protoss designs, the terran designs look klunky somehow, and they must stop totally ripping of warhammer40000. I will hate them if they put an incredibly large mech in the game.

Please check out the Marine Section at their website. You'll see the Thor, which is a rather large mech.

Interesting...but that just means those stupid bigmoney maps will be even more prolific.


Hah, the new Marine design looks a lot like WH40k marines.

Interesting. I hadn't heard about the blizzcon matches. I'm not disappointed about the more useless units like the vulture or firebat being left out, but the carrier would be a crushing blow against the protoss. Good to hear that it's back.

_bomb

Vulture useless?
That must be a joke.

Want to play a game?
Me Terran you Protoss?

Name the time and the place and I'll see if I can make it.

Vultures can be countered by virtually anything, not the least of which is any kind of air. Spider mines can be destroyed at range, hence they have little value against better oppponents. Cheap, I will grant you. But valuable, not even close.

_bomb

Tomorrow 15.00 GMT+1 at #starcraft on irc.ambrosia.net?

If 1 vulture kills 1 zealot you are up a bit of minerals.
If 1 vulture kills a dragoon, you are up a load of both gas and minerals.

Spider mines cannot be destroyed at range when there is a turret/tank close, or when planted close to something they can kill.

Carriers are pretty much death for terran, but you have to have a good enough economy to create them, or you'll just succumb as you try.

Eh, mass Lings > Vultures. They made decent support units and an interesting, fairly powerful (if not a bit slow) rush alternative, but otherwise, by their lonesomes, they kinda stunk. Decent damage, but crap life and armor.

Now Firebats going away, that's a shame. Firebats rocked against the Zerg and any other non-mechanical units. They had decent damage and life for their costs and could hit up to three times in a single attack. A few Firebats could put a stop to a Ling or Zealot rush rather quickly, especially with Marines backing them up. I think my favorite Firebat moment was using a small army (about 50) to take on an equivlanet production cost Archon army...and win. Of course, them being Archons, my forces suffered quite a bit...

Yeah, i'll probably have to rethink my terran strategy with them gone. Siege Tanks + Firebats = God Mode vs. ground units.

Well..

Mass lings do not own vultures, that comes down to micro. If you don't micro the vultures will lose, but simple hit and run will kill a lot of lings.
Then again vultures are not used that often against zerg. Seen some pros do it, but it seems incredibly hard and micro intensive.

The vulture is mostly used against protoss, and a terran who goes infantry. Sure one can say that it is a "limited" unit, but it's a rather important unit in the t v p matchup.

Back to my point:
The carrier is just as limited as the vulture. It is used mostly to kill of a terran once you have gained an edge in resources. It's a rather good unit at that too, since it's incredibly hard for terran to counter.
Sure you'll see a carrier it in Z v P, but very seldom, pretty much as often as you see a vulture vs zerg. I don't think it's used a lot in tournament p v p, though I must admit that I do not know this matchup well.

JoshTigerHearth:
I invite you to come zealot rush me when I'm terran. You don't need a single firebat to counter that, at some levels you'll need 1 marine and an SCV, at others maybe 5 marines. Building a firebats only makes you build a premature academy and using a lot of gas for no specific reason. Vultures pretty much does everything(+ a lot more) the firebat does vs protoss, and does it for no gas cost.
I'll agree the bat is great against zerg cracklings, but that's probably the only thing it's great at.

"Eh, mass Lings > Vultures. They made decent support units and an interesting, fairly powerful (if not a bit slow) rush alternative, but otherwise, by their lonesomes, they kinda stunk. Decent damage, but crap life and armor."

A splendid joke. For 75 minerals you get the fastest unit in the game, 20 damage to small units, 80 hitpoints, and 3 mines capable of inflicting TONS of damage for their cost. Mass lings will indeed take out "lone" vultures, but in a realistic setting the terran player would do some fallback fire until he reached his main tank/marine line, which means that there is generally hard to gain anything from pursuing vultures with lings.

I was talking about Vultures only vs. Lings only. You throw in other units period, even SCV swarms, and everything changes at least a little bit. In that same realistic setting, someone relying on Lings would probably have Defilers for Plague and Dark Swarm to make Lings invulnerable to all of that ranged fire and to soften up the enemy units. Or they could use a Queen to Ensnare the Vultures, preventing them from really getting anywhere at all. Or use <insert one of many other options here in a realistic scenario>.

I always felt intensive micro was a bit silly in Starcraft. Unlike in Warcraft games, there were always plenty of easy methods of dealing with microed units/buildings. Terran have Siege Tanks, Irridate, EMP Shockwave, and, most notably, the Nuke. Lockdown and Firebats can help. Zerg have Ensnare, Lurkers, Infested Terran, Scourges, Dark Swarm (as crappy as they are), and most notably, Plague. You might could also use Spawn Broodlings to disrupt the interior of a micro and maybe Ultralisks as distractions since they can take so much punishment. Protoss have perhaps the best anti-micro (Nuke aside). Stasis field will put a number of grouped units out of comission. The Corsair Disruption Web works great at stopping attacks, Psi Storm is just plain evil, and Revears whip microed tail. Then there's always Recall to bring a small group of units into the middle of a microed base, making it work against the builder. And lets not forget Maelstrom and Mind Control.

Well, I don't rush if the map is too big, twisty and turny, or it takes me too long to find you. It takes too long and by the time my Zealots get there, odds they'll get wiped out in five seconds. I'll also typically stop Ling/Lot rushing if I run into Firebats, since I've lost large, repeated assaults against a few Firebats and Bunkers. But if I am rushing, I'm pressing hard and not letting up unless it's obvious it isn't going to work. I.E., in a couple of minutes you'll have a group of units attacking you, followed by another group, and another, and another, and another. In other words, if I'm able to pull off the rush, I'm not going to let you recover enough to build that Factory, especially since I like to target workers.

Of course, I do know Vultures can be effective. I've seen them used for rushing, though I've also seen Vulture heavy strategies fall rather easily to an intense rush at the absolute soonest moment, regardless of who is doing it.

Though don't think I just rush and that's it. I usually play for the long haul. For example, economic attrition is one of my favorite strategies (I.E, keep pace with enemy expos and make sure every encounter costs me less resources than it does him). The Protoss works especially well with that, since they have the best defensive options (Shield Batteries, Photon Cannons, Psi Storm, Disruption Web, Stasis Field, Maelstrom).


Carriers weren't hard for Terran, just needed some foresight to counter effectively. Valks and cloaked Wraiths worked pretty well, as did a fleet of Battlecruisers, using a pair of Yamato Cannons per each Carrier and Arbiter (latter only if applicable). If you scouted them and spotted the Carrier fleet before it was done, a fair number of Ghosts armed with Lockdown, a nuke or two, and other units to clean up the survivors. I haven't done that last one before, but my brother did. Blew up part of his base, but it was an acceptable loss.

Just because I feel like it...

Carriers weren't so great vs other Protoss. Stasis Field, Archons, Psi Storm, and Scouts pretty much ate them alive, and you only needed one or two of those to do it. Mind Control was also fun to use. Against Zerg, Scourges were surprisngly ineffective, what with their tendency to hesitate and kill each other. Hydras, Mutas, Plague, and Dark Swarm were the most effective. Ensane helped keep them from escaping.


Bag, I probably sound like I'm some major braggart. While I do know my strategy, counters, etc, I never was the quickest player, hence my skill level is quite a bit below my knowledge level, to say the least. Which is probably why I find myself relying on defense and attrition, where I can use my unit abilities and clever defensive placements to stave off swarms of enemies.

Ok children, we know that there's a ton of different strategies to SC, mine being terran- Seige Tanks with Wraith support, zerg- 10 BILLION hatcheries kicking out fully upg'd hydras, protoss- 5 gateway rush, or fully defend base with cannons and wait for carriers and scouts.

As he said, "It's about time."

Ehrm, not only was there the cheat thing, but who would group 4 BCs in one spot like that? Talk about scourge-fest. (if they still have those)

1337 PWNXXORZZ... ehrm, that's cool.

Bottom line: Starcraft 2 is going to rock. There's no way that Blizzard can afford not to make it one of the Best. Games. Evah.

Unfortunately, I'm in EST (GMT-5) so I won't be able to make that. Plus I work full time so the only chance I would have would be weeknights after 9 or so, which would be 3 AM there. Still, I'm sure we'll be able to work something out at some point, maybe in a few weeks when work slows down. I'm always available to play against or with anyone from ASW, my new screen name is bomb_omb on US East, send me a message if you want to play.

_bomb

Nuke? The best anti-micro? What are you on meladdo? There is a reason the nuke is almost never used.. ever..
Also, you write down "(crappy as they are)" behind dark swarm?! This is one of the most devastating spells in the game. Name 1 method Terran can damage a lurker burrowed beneath Dark Swarm. Yes, that would be 1 out of their 2 ways. (One is the nuke.)

Not to be a complete git, but a lot of the info you give out here is not good advice at all.

Hardly used at all? I don't think I've been in a game where a Terran player didn't get at least one nuke if they had the chance. I always have at least one if I get the chance to get one. They're great to call down while the enemy is distracted in some way, or to use as an expensive, albeit effective distraction to use to launch an attack with. I've deliberetly let a Ghost run out of energy while approach an enemy base to "nuke" it, and acted like I was trying to run him away while get got chased down. A minute later I do it again. Another minute passes and this time I really do launch the nuke...except at a different base. I wait a moment to just before it actually appears, when my opponent is at his most frantic state looking for the Ghost, whereupon I launch an attack on a third or multiple bases. It was an awesome demoralizer.

And that was a typo on about Dark Swarm. I forgot it several words later and then inserted it, forgetting about the "(crappy as they are)" line, which was meant for the Scourges. I don't Scourges. I've sent hoardes against small groups of BCs only for them to get shot down in their hesitation or kill each other with slpash damage and taking down maybe two BCs. I've tried sending in surgical attack waves as opposed to hoardes, same thing happens. Though they do make great scouts by sticking Parasite on them, since it about triples their vision range.

And expanding on my above comment about my skill being lower than my intellegence, I blame the fact that I've played umies almost exclusively throughout my SC career.

I found some realy cool sc2 videos a few days ago, i dont think anyone has posted a link to them yet. anyway here they are. sc2

Well, scourges are not good at killing Battlecruisers, but they don't have to be. Battlecruisers will fall to devourers + hydra og muta. A well placed plague also does wonders against them.

Wasting parasite on your own scourges when you could be using them on an important, expensive enemy unit, such as a science vessel, dropship, or siege tank seems like a waste of your queen's energy. Go for detector units if possible, as you will share their detection skill.

Also, the reason Carriers are tricky to counter is because of their long range and good mobility. Carriers are actually rather fast for their size, and they are quite good at bombing bases from out of harm's way. If the terran player mobilizes battlecruisers to get rid of them, one can simply run away and redeploy the carriers, as the battlecruisers are too slow to keep up.

Main counter for zerg air is usually science vessels. Valks are less versatile and do less damage.

Yeah, those typicaly work well vs. BCs. I never really used Devourers for it (they fired too slow for my liking). I tended to drop plague on them and then focus fire with Hydras and/or Mutas.

Parasiting Scourges isn't something I do if I can feasibly Parasite something else to explore where I want. But if I don't know where any good targets are, or I want to explore areas where nobody is at yet, especially on maps with tons of twisty valleys you have to navigate on the ground, I'll use the Scourge since I can reveal unoccupied areas quite fast. Otherwise I use my Queens to drop Parasites in workers, drop ships, really expensive units, and critters. Nobody ever seems to suspect that last one and it can make a good early warning system if they leave their parasited units at home and attack you. Hence, if I'm not the Zerg and I'm playing against them, I'll kill critters on sight for that very poetential reason.

Agreed on the Carriers. Luckily if you manage to target Yamato, you can hit them with it even if they recall them via Arbiter (now THAT was funny when I did that by mistake). Though EMP and Lockdown works well against them in helping the BCs. And I've heard that a group of stimmed Marines doing focus fire works wonders too, but I haven't tried nor seen that yet.

Science Vessels used to counter Zerg air? I haven't thought of that one before, honestly, but now that you mention it I can easily see a few Science Vessels putting the hurt on some Muta swarms with Irridate. I'll need to try that next time I play (whenever that will be).

And shouldn't we take SC1 discussion to a new thread?

Carriers have base armor 4. Marines do 6 base damage. That means 2 damage per shot. This is a very desperate solution as you can see.

The point of the devourers is not to deal damage themselves, but to apply acid spores to clustered aircraft. For each spore up to a maximum of 9, the affected units will take 1 more damage from all attacks for each spore. That means a hydra will deal 19 basic damage per shot to an affected unit if you manage to apply the maximum number of acid spores. In addition, the affected units' attack speed will be lowered for each spore. Since the acid spore extra damage does not affect shields, this is less effective against Protoss.

Devourers need support from hydra or muta, as their damage per cost is terrible. They can be good at one-shotting stuff if you have a handful of them though.

Nice, Xel'Naga are back

Looks like vultures have been replaced by cobras.

Those are some really great videos. I had only seen the ones on sarcraft2.com.

Yeah that bit was very interesting. Sort of an inevitable occurence, one would think, but still a cool twist.

Cobras look like they will be infinitely more useful than Vultures, if for no other reason than they can fire and move at the same time. Also, they look better shielded and armed than the vulture.

_bomb

Oh yeah. Xel'Naga were completely expected, but it is cool to see it confirmed.

Most definitely.

The key question here is then: Do the Xel'Naga at any point have playable units in the game? Or are they restricted to the briefing and cinematic sections. It seems to me that Blizzard has been reluctant to bring in a fourth playable race, but I'd be real excited to give them a shot if it turned out that they were. Granted, in StarCraft the Xel'Naga were presented as a rather squirrely, almost God-like civilization that mucked around, lost track of their experiments then tucked tail and ran. Not exactly the best stance for a battlefield.

What do we think? To what degree will the Xel'Naga be involved in the game?

_bomb

I don't want the Xel'Naga to be a playable race, but I would like to see them interfere a bit .

Didn't blizzard state that there would be no new races?

Kinda hard to imagine them actually putting Xel'Naga in.

I think the Xel'naga will be in as a 'semi-race,' rather like the Naga in the Frozen Throne. Although only in the single player.

Yeah, I think you're right.

Until someone adds them to a custom map!

But yeah, that's how I hope they'll appear as, something like the Naga/Chaos Orcs/Satyrs/High Elves in their respective campaign missions.

wasnt there another race in the frozen throne? it seems like there was one led by some guy named akhama or something.

That was the Broken Draenei Faction. Yes, that was another race you got to play as.

Neither would I, really. The balance is too good right now. Still, I was thinking about it before and was wondering if they'd really even need a whole new unit set; rather, wouldn't it be kind of cool if the Xel'Naga could use their science and technology to implant themselves or a parasitic being into any other unit of any race, and sort of evolve their own, super version of those units? Sort of like run-away, super speed evolution.

This would allow them to appear in the game, in battles, if not as a playable race. That's assuming Blizzard didn't want them to have a large group of unique units.

_bomb

I think this is probably the most likely outcome.

_bomb

Screw the WoW massive retconning! Those are the real Draenei, not some sub-species! Heck, screw WC3's massive retconning! The Dranei are dead, killed off by the Orcs before invading Azeroth!

I seriously hope Blizzard keeps the hands of their retconning story writers off of Starcraft 2. I reallly really really hate how they butchered all the Warcraft lore. Read the Warcraft 1 manual, you'll be surprised.

Remember the Dark Templar from the original SC? They show up in a few levels, you can play with them or against them, but they don't fight all themselves... I think the Xel'Naga will be something like that- units that you can't build until the expansion

But I like the infestation idea that Bomb had- maybe not superunits though, but maybe they can heal through the parasite (rather quickly, like about 5-10x faster than Zerg) and in the Zerg's case, help them heal faster. That would make them quite super IMHO... (EDIT: Imagine BCs with healing abilities and SCVs trailing also repairing them...)

Did you know Kerrigan was an elf?

Very nice. On a more serious note: (spoilah)

Kerrigan is un-infested in SC 2. I know this because I downloaded a pic of her un-infested, but then Blizzard took it off the website because they thought it would reveal too much of the plot. (they actually revealed too much of Kerrigan... :/) Kerrigan (not for young children)

Hmmm... Kerrigan porn?

I dunno, the whole half-zerg thing isn't really a turn-on for me.

She doesn't look terribly human to me in the included picture. Blizzard was unable to quite make their mind up about her skin color in Starcraft (her unit pic was flesh colored but her campaign selection pic and the cover of brood war depicted her with green skin) but she has definitely still traded in her long red locks for a mess of antennae.




Apparently alien mutation comes with complementary implants.

Update: The Mothership now has the "cloak field"

Hmm, no black hole or time warp either. They're definitely making a lot of changes as they go, I think that's a good sign they're being especially careful with balance.

No, the time bomb still exists, but I guess you target enemy units to place it, and it's not as big, but still, I like it.

I wonder if the Mothership was too powerful as shown in that first trailer. I was definetly worried about having to go against one of those!

Ghost still got lockdown?

Problem (maybe) solved.