Full Version: A thought
This has probably been brought up somewhere on the story page, but if the player is Roland (from the unformatted term), and Durandal is Roland's sword, does this mean that Durandal is being used by you?
Please elaborate. I seek to gain much from your infinite knowledge of Marathon.
......
Actually I'm just curious.
......
Actually I'm just curious.
Well, Durandal seems to be controlling you throughout the course of the game, but you are mentioned as Roland in several places in terminals, especially the KYT Unformatted Terminal (I am Roland, Beowulf, Gilgamesh, I have been called a hundred names and will be called a thousand more before the world grows dim and cold[...]). Durandal is Roland's sword, so it would make since that you, being a Jjaro machine, are controlling Durandal while making him think that he is really the one in charge.
Mmm, this is interesting. I'll need to think about this, could be useful.
Here's the terminal in the original form:
And the story page about it.
QUOTE
ihavebee}rolandbeowulfachil!esgilgameshiha
vebeencalleda[undrednamesandwillbecalledat
housandmorebeforetheworldgoesdimandcoldiam
%heroshehasbeenn~melesssinceourbi=thaconst
antadversarycaringfornothingbutmyruinaswor
ddrenchedinmybloodfor%vermygreatestand+nly
lovesheisthedarkoLetheenemyandloverwithout
whoZmyveryexistencewouldbepatheticandvulga
rourrelationshipiscom^lexandperhapseternal
wemetonceinthegardenatthebeginningofthewor
ldandunawareofourtwindestinieswematchedsta
resacrossad;yf\untainandirecallhersmiling>
tmebeforeshedevouredthelawnandtreeswithatr
anslucentblueflameandtoreflagstonesfromthe
athandhurledthemintotheskyscreamingmysins
ipowderagranitemonumentinasoundlessflashsh
oweringthegrasswithmoltendropsofitsgoldinF
aysendingsmokingchipsofstoneskippingintoth
efogshesplinte!sanancientoakwitha/orcethat
takesmybreathandhurlsmetothegroundshelea%!
CONNECTION TERMINATED <ID#0401>
vebeencalleda[undrednamesandwillbecalledat
housandmorebeforetheworldgoesdimandcoldiam
%heroshehasbeenn~melesssinceourbi=thaconst
antadversarycaringfornothingbutmyruinaswor
ddrenchedinmybloodfor%vermygreatestand+nly
lovesheisthedarkoLetheenemyandloverwithout
whoZmyveryexistencewouldbepatheticandvulga
rourrelationshipiscom^lexandperhapseternal
wemetonceinthegardenatthebeginningofthewor
ldandunawareofourtwindestinieswematchedsta
resacrossad;yf\untainandirecallhersmiling>
tmebeforeshedevouredthelawnandtreeswithatr
anslucentblueflameandtoreflagstonesfromthe
athandhurledthemintotheskyscreamingmysins
ipowderagranitemonumentinasoundlessflashsh
oweringthegrasswithmoltendropsofitsgoldinF
aysendingsmokingchipsofstoneskippingintoth
efogshesplinte!sanancientoakwitha/orcethat
takesmybreathandhurlsmetothegroundshelea%!
CONNECTION TERMINATED <ID#0401>
And the story page about it.
Clinton! That's a complicated and devious!
And the formatted version:
QUOTE
I have been Roland, Beowulf, Achilles, Gilgamesh.
I have been called a hundred names and will be called a
thousand more before the world goes dim and cold.
I am hero. She has been nameless since our birth,
a constant adversary caring for nothing but my ruin,
a sword drenched in my blood forever, my greatest and
only love. She is the dark one, the enemy and lover, without
whom my very existence would be pathetic and vulgar!
Our relationship is complex and perhaps eternal.
We met once in the garden at the beginning of the world
and, unaware of our twin destinies, we matched stares
across a dry fountain. And I recall her smiling at me before
she devoured the lawn and trees with a translucent blue flame
and tore flagstones from the path and hurled them into the
sky, screaming my sins. I powder a granite monument in a
soundless flash, showering the grass with molten drops of
its gold inlay, sending smoking chips of stone
skipping into the fog. She splinters an ancient oak
with a force that takes my breath and hurls me to the ground.
She lea% [leaves?]
I have been called a hundred names and will be called a
thousand more before the world goes dim and cold.
I am hero. She has been nameless since our birth,
a constant adversary caring for nothing but my ruin,
a sword drenched in my blood forever, my greatest and
only love. She is the dark one, the enemy and lover, without
whom my very existence would be pathetic and vulgar!
Our relationship is complex and perhaps eternal.
We met once in the garden at the beginning of the world
and, unaware of our twin destinies, we matched stares
across a dry fountain. And I recall her smiling at me before
she devoured the lawn and trees with a translucent blue flame
and tore flagstones from the path and hurled them into the
sky, screaming my sins. I powder a granite monument in a
soundless flash, showering the grass with molten drops of
its gold inlay, sending smoking chips of stone
skipping into the fog. She splinters an ancient oak
with a force that takes my breath and hurls me to the ground.
She lea% [leaves?]
The unformatted KYT term could be saying that the player is Roland... but who knows really. Whoever is writing the term is Roland (and Beowulf, and Achilles, and Gilgamesh). The question is, who is writing the term?
On the story page, someone mentions something to the effect that if the player is Roland, it may be that although Durandal is using the player, the player is also using Durandal somehow. Since the player is silent, there's no way of knowing what his intentions are. Perhaps he has actually been using Durandal to achieve his own ends all along...
If the player is not Roland, then someone else has written the term, and whoever that person is must be controlling Durandal somehow. It could be the Jjarro, or it could simply be Durandal's creator (what was his name again...?). Who knows. It's a very interesting terminal, though. I enjoyed the mention of Michael Moorcock on the story page. Never read any of his books, but many of his stories have been made into very well done comic books, which I have read. Awesome stuff.
On the story page, someone mentions something to the effect that if the player is Roland, it may be that although Durandal is using the player, the player is also using Durandal somehow. Since the player is silent, there's no way of knowing what his intentions are. Perhaps he has actually been using Durandal to achieve his own ends all along...
If the player is not Roland, then someone else has written the term, and whoever that person is must be controlling Durandal somehow. It could be the Jjarro, or it could simply be Durandal's creator (what was his name again...?). Who knows. It's a very interesting terminal, though. I enjoyed the mention of Michael Moorcock on the story page. Never read any of his books, but many of his stories have been made into very well done comic books, which I have read. Awesome stuff.
We don't have the name of Durandal's creator. There was a scientist, Bernhard Strauss, who manipulated him, controlled his rampancy (possibly through requiring him to open doors), and presumably purged him once, but there's no evidence whatsoever to state that Strauss created him.
Possibly Durandal is a code branch of Traxus IV:
"It was original suggested that Durandal might have been Traxus IV at one stage yet on "For Carnage, Apply Within" Tycho appears in a terminal with the following ID line:
traxIV<40c<40c> 48c<48c>
Corey Halpin <chalpin@tcs.itis.com> writes:
Is it not possible that the TraxIV prefix on one of Tycho's messages resulted from his being reanimated in Durandal's image? Durandal could have been "TraxIV" and when Tycho was reanimated in his image, maybe some misguided S'pht messed with his identity string, trying to get it to match the one they found in Durandal."
- Marathon Story Page, on Tycho
Possibly Durandal is a code branch of Traxus IV:
"It was original suggested that Durandal might have been Traxus IV at one stage yet on "For Carnage, Apply Within" Tycho appears in a terminal with the following ID line:
traxIV<40c<40c> 48c<48c>
Corey Halpin <chalpin@tcs.itis.com> writes:
Is it not possible that the TraxIV prefix on one of Tycho's messages resulted from his being reanimated in Durandal's image? Durandal could have been "TraxIV" and when Tycho was reanimated in his image, maybe some misguided S'pht messed with his identity string, trying to get it to match the one they found in Durandal."
- Marathon Story Page, on Tycho
Part of the legend of Durandal (sword, not AI) is that it was wielded by a bunch of different heroes over time. It seems fairly obvious to me, at least, that "I am Roland," etc., is just a more poetic way of saying "I am basically the whole reason you've even heard of Roland." (What would Roland be without his badass sword?) Ditto for all the other heroes; Bungie clearly altered the list, as well, so the player would actually recognize the references. 
I don't remember at what point Durandal merges with that one other AI... Was that in M2?
I don't remember at what point Durandal merges with that one other AI... Was that in M2?
By no means.
In M2, Durandal takes you, a large group of former human colonists, and the rebel S'pht to Lh'owon, the ancestral homeworld of the S'pht race.
Partially through, the Pfhor's Battlegroup Seven, under High Admiral Tfear, arrives to attack Durandal, who, despite being vastly outnumbered and outgunned, gives a good account of himself against the enemy.
After a little while, he teleports you to destroy him and you do so. Then you work for the human colonists until Durandal's triumphant return. The S'pht'Kr arrive. Durandal (who has control of the Pfhor battleship Khfiva) lays waste the Pfhor fleet, but the Pfhor activate the trih xeem. With Lh'owon's destruction imminent, the S'pht take everything they can from it, and they, Durandal, and it's implied, you, escape.
The epilogue screen states that Durandal went on for an indeterminate length of time afterwards, obtaining a Jjaro dreadnought somewhere along the way.
In MI, however, when the Pfhor activate the trih xeem, the W'rkncacwhatever is released. Durandal leaves you with with a grim final message in the pathways of his ship (which doesn't look anything like a Pfhor vessel, and I doubt he would have had time to remodel, but whatever). You jump timelines until you finally get to the right one, where Durandal merges with Thoth, calls the S'pht'Kr, and uses an ancient station to contain the trih xeem blast, preventing the nova from happening and the W'rcrackwhateveritis from being released.
Two different situations, definitely two different timelines (though some people make theories to the contrary, I don't really swallow them). MI could be a dream (there's certainly enough references to dreams in it), or it could be an alternate universe. Either way, M2 is free of Durandal being ultimately merged with some other entity.
In M2, Durandal takes you, a large group of former human colonists, and the rebel S'pht to Lh'owon, the ancestral homeworld of the S'pht race.
Partially through, the Pfhor's Battlegroup Seven, under High Admiral Tfear, arrives to attack Durandal, who, despite being vastly outnumbered and outgunned, gives a good account of himself against the enemy.
After a little while, he teleports you to destroy him and you do so. Then you work for the human colonists until Durandal's triumphant return. The S'pht'Kr arrive. Durandal (who has control of the Pfhor battleship Khfiva) lays waste the Pfhor fleet, but the Pfhor activate the trih xeem. With Lh'owon's destruction imminent, the S'pht take everything they can from it, and they, Durandal, and it's implied, you, escape.
The epilogue screen states that Durandal went on for an indeterminate length of time afterwards, obtaining a Jjaro dreadnought somewhere along the way.
In MI, however, when the Pfhor activate the trih xeem, the W'rkncacwhatever is released. Durandal leaves you with with a grim final message in the pathways of his ship (which doesn't look anything like a Pfhor vessel, and I doubt he would have had time to remodel, but whatever). You jump timelines until you finally get to the right one, where Durandal merges with Thoth, calls the S'pht'Kr, and uses an ancient station to contain the trih xeem blast, preventing the nova from happening and the W'rcrackwhateveritis from being released.
Two different situations, definitely two different timelines (though some people make theories to the contrary, I don't really swallow them). MI could be a dream (there's certainly enough references to dreams in it), or it could be an alternate universe. Either way, M2 is free of Durandal being ultimately merged with some other entity.
QUOTE(Consul Bob @ Oct 31 2007, 11:40 AM) 
In MI, however, when the Pfhor activate the trih xeem, the W'rkncacwhatever is released. Durandal leaves you with with a grim final message in the pathways of his ship (which doesn't look anything like a Pfhor vessel, and I doubt he would have had time to remodel, but whatever). You jump timelines until you finally get to the right one, where Durandal merges with Thoth, calls the S'pht'Kr, and uses an ancient station to contain the trih xeem blast, preventing the nova from happening and the W'rcrackwhateveritis from being released.
Two different situations, definitely two different timelines (though some people make theories to the contrary, I don't really swallow them). MI could be a dream (there's certainly enough references to dreams in it), or it could be an alternate universe. Either way, M2 is free of Durandal being ultimately merged with some other entity.
Two different situations, definitely two different timelines (though some people make theories to the contrary, I don't really swallow them). MI could be a dream (there's certainly enough references to dreams in it), or it could be an alternate universe. Either way, M2 is free of Durandal being ultimately merged with some other entity.
Actually, I'm pretty sure that the ship the message is on is the same station that Durandal said you would meet "in the void between the great spiral arms." Durandal is already there when he recives word that the W'rcanactor or whatever has been released, and is about to destroy the universe.
Also, you end up in the same timeline. You just find out from another one what you have to do to save the original one. This involves Durandal not staying on Lh'owon or getting attacked by Battle Group 7.
I don't see enough evidence that the player wrote this terminal. It frankly doesn't make sense: why would you leave a cryptic message for yourself in the middle of nowhere? When would you have written this, and how did it get in a long-forgotten underwater Lh'owon terminal of all places? And why would you write it; who would you hope to see the message? Yourself? That only makes sense if you forgot your past at some point, and later went back in time to leave yourself a message, which while certainly possible given Marathon's story, is unlikely to happen just for the purposes of a single terminal. The only thing going for this argument is the Roland-Durandal link, which ties the writer to Durandal, but you're certainly not the only one who's tied to Durandal. Let me re-post my analysis of this terminal:
So, I find it most likely that Yrro, the Jjaro, wrote this terminal. Therefore, since Yrro has been called Roland, the only one who may be controlling Durandal is Yrro. That makes sense to me, as the Jjaro are the gods of the Marathon universe, only arguably equaled by the W'rkncacnter. Durandal consistently seeks to gain the knowledge and power of the Jjaro, so it is consistent for him to ultimately be a 'tool' of the Jjaro.
So why does the terminal appear at this place and time? I think the answer has to do with Thoth, as this is the level where Thoth fully comes to life, and I'd stipulated earlier that Thoth is Jjaro-derived. Thoth, like this terminal, makes reference to Earth-specific things.
Now that I look at it again, one could make the argument that the female in the terminal is not Yrro's lover Pthia, but is the W'rkncacnter itself. I'd still give the edge to it being Pthia, though.
QUOTE
OC AN If you return to the first terminal you get a garbled, but readable message. I read the formatted version on the story page, and before being influenced by other people's theories, my thoughts are thus: in a nutshell, the author laments a cruel, violent lover named Lethe, whom the author realizes does terrible things but seems incapable of losing as a companion. The two of them at one point went on a destructive, stormy rampage.
The author and its lover seem to have godlike powers: setting trees and lawns on fire, turning granite monuments to powder, and such. This makes the Jjaro the best candidate for their identities. Since there are two of them, and they met "at the beginning of the world," it really sounds like these Jjaro are, specifically, the same Yrro and Pthia mentioned in S'pht mythology. The author is Yrro, and Lethe is Pthia. The terminal says they change names, but Yrro has already been identified as masculine, and Lethe is identified as feminine in this terminal. Both the characters throw the world they're on in chaos. I believe the W'rkncacnter, presented as the force of chaos in S'pht mythology, is to blame. It supports the theory I made back in Six Thousand Feet Under: that rather than attack Yrro or Pthia directly, the W'rkncacnter drove them to madness in a 'devil-made-me-do-it' way. Since we know Pthia died as a result of the two encountering the W'rkncacnter, we may surmise that Yrro killed Pthia. Perhaps Yrro was so distraught when Pthia/Lethe started destroying the trees, lawns, flagstones, and such, he saw no other recourse than to stop her by force. He definitely seems as anguished as he does in the S'pht creation myth, calling Pthia/Lethe "drenched in my blood forever."
What doesn't make sense are the specifics. Who wrote this terminal? It describes things like granite and trees, but also specifics like "lawns," "flagstones," and "oaks." There are no oak trees on Lh'owon! Not to mention the human-created legends/epics of Roland, Beowulf, Achilles, and Gilgamesh. So there is a human influence there somewhere. The text appears in green, which is normally used by Durandal or the humans (and everyone in Marathon). It would seem someone has 'humanized' the text, to tailor it for human reading. Perhaps one of Blake's men stumbled upon it and, in the process of translation, substituted various Earth-specific nouns. By saying the writer has been called hundreds of names, it seems to be saying it is more of an idea than a person or being.
OC AN Now, after reading the section on the story page about this...they bring up several works of literature containing similar words or ideas, but these are not self-contained within the Marathon universe. While the story might be influenced by this or that, I'm still pondering the big question: who are the two subjects in the terminal?
The author and its lover seem to have godlike powers: setting trees and lawns on fire, turning granite monuments to powder, and such. This makes the Jjaro the best candidate for their identities. Since there are two of them, and they met "at the beginning of the world," it really sounds like these Jjaro are, specifically, the same Yrro and Pthia mentioned in S'pht mythology. The author is Yrro, and Lethe is Pthia. The terminal says they change names, but Yrro has already been identified as masculine, and Lethe is identified as feminine in this terminal. Both the characters throw the world they're on in chaos. I believe the W'rkncacnter, presented as the force of chaos in S'pht mythology, is to blame. It supports the theory I made back in Six Thousand Feet Under: that rather than attack Yrro or Pthia directly, the W'rkncacnter drove them to madness in a 'devil-made-me-do-it' way. Since we know Pthia died as a result of the two encountering the W'rkncacnter, we may surmise that Yrro killed Pthia. Perhaps Yrro was so distraught when Pthia/Lethe started destroying the trees, lawns, flagstones, and such, he saw no other recourse than to stop her by force. He definitely seems as anguished as he does in the S'pht creation myth, calling Pthia/Lethe "drenched in my blood forever."
What doesn't make sense are the specifics. Who wrote this terminal? It describes things like granite and trees, but also specifics like "lawns," "flagstones," and "oaks." There are no oak trees on Lh'owon! Not to mention the human-created legends/epics of Roland, Beowulf, Achilles, and Gilgamesh. So there is a human influence there somewhere. The text appears in green, which is normally used by Durandal or the humans (and everyone in Marathon). It would seem someone has 'humanized' the text, to tailor it for human reading. Perhaps one of Blake's men stumbled upon it and, in the process of translation, substituted various Earth-specific nouns. By saying the writer has been called hundreds of names, it seems to be saying it is more of an idea than a person or being.
OC AN Now, after reading the section on the story page about this...they bring up several works of literature containing similar words or ideas, but these are not self-contained within the Marathon universe. While the story might be influenced by this or that, I'm still pondering the big question: who are the two subjects in the terminal?
So, I find it most likely that Yrro, the Jjaro, wrote this terminal. Therefore, since Yrro has been called Roland, the only one who may be controlling Durandal is Yrro. That makes sense to me, as the Jjaro are the gods of the Marathon universe, only arguably equaled by the W'rkncacnter. Durandal consistently seeks to gain the knowledge and power of the Jjaro, so it is consistent for him to ultimately be a 'tool' of the Jjaro.
So why does the terminal appear at this place and time? I think the answer has to do with Thoth, as this is the level where Thoth fully comes to life, and I'd stipulated earlier that Thoth is Jjaro-derived. Thoth, like this terminal, makes reference to Earth-specific things.
Now that I look at it again, one could make the argument that the female in the terminal is not Yrro's lover Pthia, but is the W'rkncacnter itself. I'd still give the edge to it being Pthia, though.
I wouldn't say that the Jjaro are god-like. Seeing as how they have space stations and the like, it seems more likely to me that they just seemed that way to the ancient S'pht because of their technology.
Precisely, because sufficiently advanced technology would be indistinguishable from magic. EXAMPLE: If a time-traveler took an iPod back to the middle ages, they'd probably assume he or she could summon music from anywhere.
But another thing: The terminal refers to the sword as "she" and I'm pretty sure Durandal is male. Correct me if i'm wrong...
You don't think I'm sarcastic, do you?
But another terminal, I forget which, said that roland "always thought of instruments of war as feminine," so it's probably a minor detail.
But another thing: The terminal refers to the sword as "she" and I'm pretty sure Durandal is male. Correct me if i'm wrong...
You don't think I'm sarcastic, do you?
But another terminal, I forget which, said that roland "always thought of instruments of war as feminine," so it's probably a minor detail.
QUOTE(Consul Bob @ Oct 31 2007, 11:40 AM)
By no means. *snip* Either way, M2 is free of Durandal being ultimately merged with some other entity.
Ah, thanks for the refresher. I've played all three games a couple of times, but there are a few events whose context I can't clearly remember. So yeah, I guess the as-yet-unvoiced part of my theory is shot down... I still don't think that rules out Durandal, though.
QUOTE(3dd13 @ Nov 1 2007, 05:34 PM)
But another thing: The terminal refers to the sword as "she" and I'm pretty sure Durandal is male. Correct me if i'm wrong...
Well Tycho does use a feminine adjective when addressing Durandal in M1: Durandal!- Tu delenda est!... but all that really shows is that Tycho fails at Latin.
QUOTE(NTiOzymandias @ Nov 1 2007, 06:23 PM)
but all that really shows is that Tycho fails at Latin.
Considering that it's a dead language, I think everyone failed at Latin.
As to the game, I think like many good stories there is no one response. You have to find the story that you like the best and means the most to you. It may be an entirely invalid interpretation to someone else (there may even be evidence against it), but the important thing is that it tells a story to you.
That's not to say discussion of it, more than 10 years after it was released, is a bad thing at all. Enjoying something so much that you have squeeze every little bit of meaning out of it is a good thing (well, usually, heh).
QUOTE(GutlessWonder @ Nov 1 2007, 07:40 PM)
Considering that it's a dead language, I think everyone failed at Latin.
It's no longer Latin, but it's far from extinct... cf. French, Spanish, Italian, Catalan, Romanian, Sicilian... But this is Marathon 457, not Historical Linguistics 101, so never mind
QUOTE(Cosmic_Nusiance @ Nov 1 2007, 08:43 PM)
I wouldn't say that the Jjaro are god-like. Seeing as how they have space stations and the like, it seems more likely to me that they just seemed that way to the ancient S'pht because of their technology.
I think they're very god-like. Recall this terminal:
In primordial space, timeless creatures made waves. These waves created us and the others. Waves were the battles, and the battles were waves.
Fleeing all W'rkncacnter, Yrro and Pthia settled upon Lh'owon. They brought the S'pht, servants who began to shape the deserts of Lh'owon into marsh and sea, rivers and forests. They made sisters for Lh'owon to protect and maintain the paradise.
When the W'rkncacnter came, Pthia was killed, and Yrro in anger, flung the W'rkncacnter into the sun. The sun burned them, but they swam on its surface.
Yrro became an angry master, bleeding for his failure, grieving for the loss of Pthia. He broke the S'pht into eleven clans, and spread them over Lh'owon.
And he spoke, yet covered in blood from his exertion,
"I, Yrro, who was your master, have failed to preserve you. Take your royalty to guide you, and live upon the paradise that you built for me."
Any entity which can create planets, populate them with life, fling things into stars unassisted, control the movement and organization of an entire race, and is chronicled in specifically religious texts, is certainly god-like. I didn't say they were gods (though to the S'pht they are), but they fit the description of gods.
I don't mean to start a discussion on if gods really exist. Eddie is correct that when the difference in advancement between two races is great enough, the less advanced may attribute the technology of the more advanced to magic or spiritual power. But I still say the Jjaro are godlike: godlike to the S'pht and godlike to you and me as humans, on a historical basis of what abilities humans have attributed to gods.
Actually, not really unassisted. The station at the end of M∞ is the one they used to create Lh'owon.
I meant fling things into stars unassisted; I added unassisted because I anticipated someone might otherwise point out that we can fling things into the sun too if we want, assisted by rocketry. Granted, Marathon Infinity is the game that's least fresh in my mind since I haven't played it for a while.
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