I was just reading the "Where can I get a copy of the Syndicate" topic, and then Kilvain's post about abandonware.
I'm in two minds on the topic. Firstly, pirating software is effecitively theft - hence, is wrong. I can't say that I've not pirated software in the past, so I'm not really one to come crashing down waving my big morality stick at anyone. The ripped off software is now gone, and I don't do it any more ... partly because I've listened to pipe ranting and realised that if I want to support mac developers, I'd better pay them for doing their job.
Having said that, I also agree with supporters of 'Abandonware' that if a company is no longer selling the piece of software and it is over 'x' years old, then it should be ~reviewed~ for free distribution.
I know that some software publishers do this. Certainly, you can get OS 7.5.5 (I think) as abandonware, and I have a feeling that Adobe distributes older versions of its software for a much lower price, if any at all.
It boils down to this, I guess -- I am a supporter of abandonware -- but only with the author's permission. This is because there is a large amount of really good software out there that is no longer supported/distributed/whatever which there is still a call for. For example: a student may want a DTP program, but he can't afford the distributed version of AppleWorks (6). However, ClarisWorks 3 is good enough for what he needs, you can't get it through retail for love nor money (believe me, I've tried.. I'm using 6 at the moment, and I wanna go back to 3). Apple would do well to distribute that version of Claris as 'abandonware' - not only does this poor student get a decent DTP suite to do his papers on, but it supports the huge number of people with 'old' computers that can't run the latest software.
Sure, I may have a vested interest, being both a poor student and having a 630 which I'm trying to keep useful, but I do believe that the free (or cheap) distribution of outdated software should be considered by more software publishers, but under slightly different terms to the 'over five years old and unsupported' filter used today.

Any comments?

-Gildor

[edit] This probably belongs on Just Chat... Mods: move it if you wish [/edit]
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beyond infinity | FFF2: The Warrior's Return | #ev3 Quote archive
mailto:jon@infiniti-web.comjon@infiniti-web.com
AIM: HE Gildor | ICQ: 89293479
In loving memory of Shelley 'CheatMaster' Leyton. 17th March 1978 - 1st January 2001 | | The reward for a good deed is having done it

[This message has been edited by Gildor (edited 05-31-2001).]

You are quite right that abandonware is technically piracy/theft. However, this is currently the only way to get hold of some of those 'classics'. I would happily pay money for them IF I could buy them, even if the companies who distribute those games dumped them on an FTP site and charged you a fiver to download.

And also, since they are no longer being sold, the software companies are no longer making any money from those games, so they won't be losing money if you download a free copy of a game (Yeah, standard excuse). Its NOT the same as copying a game which is still available to buy.

The abandonware site which I posted in the "Where can I get a copy of the Syndicate" topic, originally had to remove ALL their games from their old site, but I believe they then contacted the distributors for permission, and they then started to re-upload the game.

That is how I see it!


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"I saw weird stuff in that place last night. Weird, strange, sick, twisted, eerie, godless, evil stuff. And I want in." Homer Simpson
"When I am king you will be first against the wall...." Radiohead, Paranoid Android

[This message has been edited by Evil Homer (edited 05-31-2001).]

But if you're spending all your time playing old games for free, you're not spending any money on buying the company's new games. Old games still have brand value. If some company wants to release a new game based on an old character or concept, they'd rather you buy the new game than play an old game for free, especially if the gameplay is similar. That's probably the biggest reason games companies generally don't give away old games for free; it's easy to argue how it *will* lose them money.


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Well, I downloaded the full version of Infini-D 4.5 from what was said to be an "abandoned warehouse," so I thought the software was perfectly free. It wasn't till recently that Crawler told me that a company does still hold rights to Infini-D. Oh well, I enjoyed the program while it lasted...


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~Captain Skyblade
==============
President of the Corsair Development Team
Corsair Homepage | Corsair Web Board | Starbase Delta

Not to be crude, but I don't care. I'm desperate to get my hands on the older games...

Sorry,
A salvager

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*sigh* Is there ever a good EVO roleplaying experience?
AIM: StrikerDragon

Seems to me this is similar to the debate over emulation of older video game consoles. An arbitrary "5-year rule" makes little sense, in my opinion, because there are games that sputter out right after release, and classics that live on for years. There's also the point ascii brought up that it dilutes one's time and inclination to play a company's newer games. I think I will have to agree with those who say abandonware is perfectly acceptable with the author's consent.



Nah, not only did you write this topic after seeing another post on this board, but games seem to be quite possibly the most popular type of "abandonware" available. The topic may and shall remain here.

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Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes.
Si vous pouvez lire ce, grande affaire!
Just Games, because wasting time is a beautiful thing
The WWII Plug-in for EVO, coming sooner or later...

Generally I agree with Gildor. There really should be some way for older games and software to be made available, but as long as the law considers it illegal people are taking a risk by offering the software to others. Hopefully a logical compromise can be found. I've heard that some proponents of abandonware are looking for a kind of game museum to be created on the internet. That way the classic games of the past would never be lost because of legal entanglements.
As for getting the game creator's permission, that would seem incredibly logical, however in many cases the copyright is owned either by the company which originally produced the title or by a company which purchased the original business. Unfortunately, the permission of the game's creator often does nothing to change the legal standing of the software.
There is also the chance that companies have not abandoned their old software. As we've seen with recent releases and updates of old games from the 80's, companies often hold on to old material for a few years until they see the potential for profit from a rerelease. Offering a classic game for free would hurt the potential earnings of a retro games pack.

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My name is Ozymandias, king of kings: Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!
Official Resistance Website

That's why abandonware actually encourages innovation. The new stuff has to be better than the old stuff to make money.

Program copyrights should expire after 6-8 years.

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Conservatives just have different priorities about the environment. They'd rather be able to afford the rebreather masks and oxygen tanks than not need them at all.
"The greatest danger to the Republic is ignorance. Intelligence
is the foundation of free government." -- Robert Green Ingersoll

Personally, I think that companies should old release software that they're not selling anymore as freeware. I like to restore and emulate old Macs (current project is an LC II), but I just can't find any decent software for them. Seems like the only thing I can find anymore is old Mac OS versions and cheap games (cheap in 1990 standards, that is). Also, going to the emulation subject, is Nintendo even making a cent off those old 8-bit games? Looking for ROM files, I stumbled on a page on Nintendo's official website talking about the 75-year copyright rule and how they will enforce it by all means necessary. I understand their fuss about emulating games back to the Super Nintendo, but the original NES? I think it's absurd for them to want to wait 75 years before letting us play their old games again. There's the government of our "free country" speaking for you...

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"I'm better at toying with people cerebrally than I was a few years ago. I'm better at f**king with your head."
-Chino Moreno, Deftones lead singer
Bill Gates Must Die!

Well, here we all go with a big arguement on what's right and what's wrong. I'm with Gildor. Anyone here who uses an NES, SNES, Geneses, ect. emulater is piriting software, and I'll bet that at least half the people here do it. I know I do. This is just about the same as napster, only most of that stuff is new. Anyone who says that piriteing this stuff is the only was to get it is WRONG. I know a few stores here in VA. where I can buy a working NES and LOTS of NES games at. Try looking here for a place to buy this stuff at: http://www.gamestop.com From here you can locate where to buy millions of games at different Babbages and Funco Land stors across the nation.

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eBay, of course, is a gold mine for those wanting a crack at old games and systems. A system such as the Genesis can be found with accessories and games for under $50 U.S. Hunt around and you're sure to find a deal.

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Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes.
Si vous pouvez lire ce, grande affaire!
Just Games, because wasting time is a beautiful thing
The WWII Plug-in for EVO, coming sooner or later...

Just to comment on the last few posts by bite_me_man and StarStrafer:

Yes, you still can buy old games and systems from various places, but none of them are from the original manufacturer. Nintendo doesn't make any more money if you buy an NES with Super Mario 3 from eBay than it does if you play a Super Mario 3 ROM on your computer with iNES. So I'm not really sure about the strength of that argument.

As Kilvain mentioned, companies sometimes do rereleases of their old software, which complicates matters. For example, Squaresoft recently rereleased Final Fantasy 5 and 6 as a Playstation title called "Final Fantasy Anthology," and they're doing something similar very soon for Final Fantasy 4 (2) and Chrono Trigger. So if you play *those* games on an emulator, technically you *are* hurting Square's revenue.

I'm inclined to agree with Yoda's point about innovation. If I'd rather play Final Fantasy 4 than Final Fantasy 8, why shouldn't that be my right? Of course they'd rather that I play the new, expensive game, but it's not my fault if the older one is better - it's theirs.

A company is within their rights to charge for or withhold older software, but I'd much prefer that they did the former. While there's no law against taking products off the market, I do feel that it's unkind to the general public in this sort of case.

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Back in my day, we didn't have any of this here UBB nonsense. It was DiscBoard or nothing, and we liked it!
Irony: "I don't want a flame war, you obnoxious SOB." - chill_rx

[This message has been edited by Glenn (edited 06-03-2001).]

My eBay link wasn't meant as an argument, I was just suggesting an alternative source for older games that is less legally questionable. Just to respond to your point, however, yes Nintendo would not make any additional money from the resale of an NES cartridge. However, the seller no longer has a copy of the game, unlike ROM files, which can be copied ad infinitum. So reselling does not produce any additional copies of the game that were not paid for, it simply shifts ownership of a game that was already purchased.

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Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes.
Si vous pouvez lire ce, grande affaire!
Just Games, because wasting time is a beautiful thing
The WWII Plug-in for EVO, coming sooner or later...

In my opinion, old programs that aren't sold anymore should be released as free. Adobe doesn't make any money off of Photoshop 3 does it? Do you really think that Photoshop 3 is any kind of competition for Photoshop 6? It's like a demo; you like the old version, you buy the new. It's also a way to get customer loyalty.

Anyone ever heard of Pixels? They created the program "Pixels 3D Studio" and related items. The current shipping vesion is 3.7, and it sells for $400 and some change. You can also freely download, from their site, and from them get a registration code for, version 3.6.3. That is what I think that companies should do let you have the old versions so you buy the new ones. It also helps out those who are less monetarily priveliged.

And about console games. Do you honestly think ANYONE is still making money off of ANYTHING for the origional NES? Nintendo probably doesn't even care about it, and probably sues people about it just because it can. Nintendo 64 emulation, however is a different matter.

Just my two cents.

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Long Live Apple! Long Live the Mac!
http://www.geocities.com/salrillian
http://www.geocities.com/evclassic

It doesn't make any sense at all to take products off the market when there is no marginal cost to make additional copies, as in software.

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Conservatives just have different priorities about the environment. They'd rather be able to afford the rebreather masks and oxygen tanks than not need them at all.
"The greatest danger to the Republic is ignorance. Intelligence
is the foundation of free government." -- Robert Green Ingersoll

Yes, but abandonware can't possibly hurt the company any more than reselling old games. Both hurt the sales of newer games equally, and neither takes any money directly away from the company.

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Conservatives just have different priorities about the environment. They'd rather be able to afford the rebreather masks and oxygen tanks than not need them at all.
"The greatest danger to the Republic is ignorance. Intelligence
is the foundation of free government." -- Robert Green Ingersoll

If we don't emulate games on the SNES and NES now, in 75 years we won't want to emulate them, because we will be too old, senile, or dead (or a combination of all three). I am an advocate of emulation for systems and games that have not generated profit for their parent companies for at least five, maybe seven years. With the re-release of the Final Fantasy and Chrono Trigger, that poses a dilemma. The new games are enhanced somewhat, so technically they are different games.

However, systems and games that are still making profit for their parent companies should be illegal for emulation. That includes Gameboy in all of its forms.

They also say on emulation websites that back-up copies of games are legal. Is this true? Not quite sure on this topic.

On the other hand, with Abandonware, what you all have been describing as companies releasing old versions of programs for free is happening already with some companies. The text editor BBEdit 6.0 is the latest version I believe, but version 5.0 is free. It would be nice to see more prominent companies do this, like Adobe, MacroMedia, et cetera.

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"Well, no one expects the spanish inquisition!" -Monty Python's Flying Circus
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http://members.aol.com/dualblade1/surfingthenova.mp3 - A lame MP3 with me playing guitar live.

Maybe I missed it, but no one has mentioned MAME yet. I think it's silly for Atari, Williams, Capcom and all the old coin-op game companies (I think they're almost all owned by the same company now) to try to stop ROM distribution. I can't remember the last time I saw a real Tempest (Atari, 1981) machine (my favorite game ever)...or Robotron, or any of those old arcade classics.

Instead of complaining about ROM distribution, they should set up a place where people can pay for a license! I'd pay $20 to own a ROM of the original game. But instead, if I want to play the game *at all* I have to break the law, and they don't see a dime.

Yeah, you could argue that having a ROM of Tempest might keep me from buying Tempest2000, but take it from someone who spent years in front of Temptest machines (and untold $$), the original is way better than the modernized versions (including Arashi, which is close). Tempest 2000 is not worth any money, IMO.

True enough that the company doesn't make money in either case, but I do think abandonware has more of an effect on new sales than reselling old games... I think people will be more inclined to play the old games if they can get them for free (abandonware) than if they had to buy them. In other words, if someone is prepared to pay for a game, there is at least the chance they'll buy a new game instead of old ones.

What about trading old games?

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Conservatives just have different priorities about the environment. They'd rather be able to afford the rebreather masks and oxygen tanks than not need them at all.
"The greatest danger to the Republic is ignorance. Intelligence
is the foundation of free government." -- Robert Green Ingersoll

If people have to give something away - money, other games, whatever - I think in general they'll do it less than if they can get their games for free.

You might as well ask if people swapping new games with each other reduces the potential sales of new games. And of course it does!

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As I said in my previous reply to this topic, it would be great if the companies who made these games simply dumped them on an FTP site and charged a small fee for downloading! The companies make a bit extra money, we get to play classic games, and everyone's happy

I can't speak for everyone, but abandonware games don't usually put me off buying a newly released game if I really want that game. I tend to play a game solid for a week or two, and then take a break from it. It is during these breaks that I usually play either EV/O, Unreal Tournament, or some old/abandonware game.

Another point brought up in this topic is emulation. I love emulating consoles, and have several emultors. Downloading ROM's of obsolete consoles probably has little or no effect to the publishers. However, I tend to download the ROM's, play the games for a couple of days, and then delete them. Nostalgia is good for so long, but then you realise the game you played when you were 10 is just crap The only old games I keep are for my Amstrad, which has a large archive of games and software on the internet (because most of the companies are gone or just don't care about these games)!

I will now shut up as I am starting to spraff a bit

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"I saw weird stuff in that place last night. Weird, strange, sick, twisted, eerie, godless, evil stuff. And I want in." Homer Simpson
"When I am king you will be first against the wall...." Radiohead, Paranoid Android
"He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy!" Brian's Mum